Curse

Sarus · Aug 28, 2005, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Perhaps more helpful advice would have been to post links to some of the other discussions of the build.

That's probably true but why should I go to the trouble of searching the forums for a topic when the original posters are too lazy to do it themselves. Much easier to call them an idiot and move on.

Aniewiel · Aug 28, 2005, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarus

That's probably true but why should I go to the trouble of searching the forums for a topic when the original posters are too lazy to do it themselves. Much easier to call them an idiot and move on.

*snorts* Well...there is a certain twisted logic to that....

Since there -has- been so much discussion about the R/W build, maybe someone could write up a pros (if there are any)/cons type article and we can get it stickied to the top of the forum (not just under the Ranger Basics thread). Or a stickied thread about the most commonly discussed builds along those lines? Saves people the agony of the search key (LOL!) and saves the forum regulars from feeling the need to...um...name call and/or repeat themselves for the umteenth time.

I don't know...just a thought.

Eonwe · Aug 28, 2005, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Sorry if I come across as a little harsh, I'll try to be nicer

.

banishd · Aug 28, 2005, 11:03 PM // 23:03

power attack on a ranger primary.

Scaphism · Aug 28, 2005, 11:07 PM // 23:07

I think this is one of the biggest problems in the forum and one I don't know how to solve.

So many of the questions/builds/idea that are posted have been posted, discussed, and hopefully answered before, yet people consistently miss the previous discussions and start things over again.

I think a "Guru Primer on Guildwars" for people to read through would be really helpful, but frankly I don't have the time to sift through all of the old informative posts to create one.

The other option I have as a mod is to close or lock every new R/W thread that comes along, or whatever the particular thread is, but even then I don't have enough time to catch every post. Right now there are two Fragility+Virulence posts on the front page of the Campfire forum, discussing the exact same thing, posted at nearly the same time. I can't merge the threads at this point because they're two separate discussions and merging would wreck any continuity within the individual threads. Yet they are both clearly discussing the same topic. I can almost guarantee that those are not the only two Fragility+Virulence posts that have been made recently. What more can we do when people wont even look on the first page to see if there is already a thread on their topic?

We have to pick and choose our spots, and sometimes that means being harsh on certain posts while ignoring others. Ultimately that choice rests with us, the moderators, whether you like it or not.

My recommendation is to identify the posters who give constructive feedback and make informative posts, then pay attention to what they write. Go through their post history and find out what topics they've been answering.

Aniewiel · Aug 28, 2005, 11:12 PM // 23:12

I would be happy to compile a list of links to the most common builds that have been discussed in the past while. If someone could give -me- the list of the builds that have been discussed into oblivion, I'll even use the search key.

Kalysha Katana · Aug 28, 2005, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Elitist is just a fancy name for someone with an inferiority complex anyway imo

A decent person wouldn't just outright trash a build if it's not good, but more likely to give constructive and helpful criticism/advice

Eet GnomeSmasher · Aug 28, 2005, 11:36 PM // 23:36

First of all, if you're tired of the same old "noob" builds popping up, the smart thing would be to ignore the thread and not adding fuel to the fire. But some of your egos need boosting so much that you can't help but add your snotty remarks about how stupid and noobish the posted builds are.

Second, You claim that you're trying to help discourage bad builds but I hardly see any constructive criticisms to go along with the snotty remarks. And if people don't listen, let it go. Simple as that. Don't carry your grudges over to other threads with "noob" builds.

It gets really old to see the real discussions buried in childish putdowns and insults. It also discourages people from asking for help or just to share builds just to avoid the aggravation.

If everyone came up with posts like "I'm going to jump off a cliff" then what state would the forums be in? How does that help anyone?

Loviatar · Aug 28, 2005, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Eet GnomeSmasher

i dont agree with you that often but boy you sure hit that one on the head

Tuna · Aug 28, 2005, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

The other option I have as a mod is to close or lock every new R/W thread that comes along, or whatever the particular thread is, but even then I don't have enough time to catch every post. Right now there are two Fragility+Virulence posts on the front page of the Campfire forum, discussing the exact same thing, posted at nearly the same time. I can't merge the threads at this point because they're two separate discussions and merging would wreck any continuity within the individual threads. Yet they are both clearly discussing the same topic. I can almost guarantee that those are not the only two Fragility+Virulence posts that have been made recently. What more can we do when people wont even look on the first page to see if there is already a thread on their topic?

I think someone should count the number of solo builds in the campfire. I stopped going there because thats all thats really discussed. That and builds that have been discussed several times before. There should be a sticky (if there isn't one already) telling people to search since many, many, builds have been covered already.

Aniewiel · Aug 28, 2005, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

There should be a sticky (if there isn't one already) telling people to search since many, many, builds have been covered already.

Exactly.

I made a post with the most recent five links to the R/W build discussions. I didn't sticky that since I figure that that's best left in the hands of Ensign and Scaphism to do. But it's there.

As I said earlier: If someone would give me a short list of the most discussed builds, I will search out the most recent links and post them. I just know that, if someone's looking for a R/W discussion, they probably WON'T look in the Ranger Basics or Warrior Basics threads. That's just how people are, I'm afraid.

EinValentine · Aug 29, 2005, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

We have to pick and choose our spots, and sometimes that means being harsh on certain posts while ignoring others. Ultimately that choice rests with us, the moderators, whether you like it or not.

There is a fairly large gulf between the reasonable moderation you are discussing and calling someone a "scrub" and an "idiot". I don't see any complaints about moderation here. If anything I would advocate more strict moderation on personal attacks.

Moderation to remove superfluous topics is perfectly reasonable. Abusive and peurile behavior, which includes name-calling and derision, is not. To be clear I am not accusing you personally of this. I don't recall you behaving in this manner.

As a site that seeks to encourage intelligent discussion it behooves you to enforce reasonable standards of discourse on everyone involved, and the mere fact that certain posts are annoyingly redundant is no excuse for some posters, however knowledgeable they may be, to act petulant. It does this community no credit. How you as a moderator choose to deal with this is entirely your own decision, naturally.

Tuna · Aug 29, 2005, 12:09 AM // 00:09

You can't post a build that you just pulled out of your ass and expect forum regulars to do your thinking for you. If this guy really thinks that running with no elite is the best way to go then he really is pretty moronic.

Some builds off the top of my head that have been repeatedly discussed:

ranger w/ fragility
virulence w/ fragility
hammer + as
earth eles
r/w
w/x (nobody actually uses the warrior sticky :/ )
solo builds

Orochim4ru · Aug 29, 2005, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

You can't post a build that you just pulled out of your ass and expect forum regulars to do your thinking for you.

No one was asking for that: they've been asking for polite discussion. If his build was crap, just point out why or ignore the thread. Saying "OH BARF THAT SUCKS" doesn't help anyone.

Ensign, normally i'm a huge fan of your posts, but your defence of nub bashing sorta turns me off. If the guy is a casual player and doesn't read the forums 24/7 and wants some info on a build of his, i don't think it warrants bashing, regardless of how much his class combination has been discussed.

Silmor · Aug 29, 2005, 04:49 AM // 04:49

I've seen forums where mediocrity rules, where people aren't called on their nonsense, where being right is in no way important as long as you're nice. They're breeding grounds for hilarious builds and plain misinformation about the most simple mechanics in the game. Which are simply a lost cause for common sense, because trying to rectify all the layered misconceptions regarding skills, builds and playing styles would take months to clear up.

This sort of flaming does a forum an immense amount of good, it may not be nice for the original poster to be called on the flaws in his post, but in order to safeguard the quality of the information on this forum it's simply necessary to show to everyone visiting the thread that what is being presented as solid information is just bunk. This is especially true for subjects like Nature's Renewal pre-patch, or R/W using Tiger's Fury, where the entire discussion has already taken place, ready for all to read, yet the discussion (and the conclusions and insights in it) are blissfully ignored by people who think they know better regardless, and refuse to accept any criticism. Patiently regurgitating the same solid arguments from that discussion is a waste of time then, since they already chose to ignore them, so the optimal course of action is to leave a clear marker for anyone reading the build: "don't rely on this information".

Advocating kindness and understanding towards these people will make this a more pleasant forum for casual gamers, sure. It will also destroy the quality of the information on it, which will drive away those people with actual clue about the game, which further destroys the quality of information, etc. until there's just some morons left patting eachother on the back over their retarded builds and exchanging tips on how to beat that difficult Gates of Kryta mission. Last I saw this forum wasn't called Guild Wars Casual Gamers though, so I don't expect it to come to this ever. Flame on!

Scaphism · Aug 29, 2005, 05:02 AM // 05:02

To all those addressing Ensign;
He is the best and most active contributor to the Guildwars Community that I know of. His advice is expert advice. You can choose to do with it what you want, but there is no reason to hold anyone's hand. There's no malice in his posts, he's not unessecarily mean- in fact he's stark raving clear.
He's also one of the best resources on these boards. You're welcome to disagree with him or dislike his manner. But when you post why should he, or anyone else change their style in response, especially when it's so effective?

It's not supposed to be about popularity or praising each other unnecessarily. That's why you have friends. In the (somewhat) anonymous internet, you're coming for advice on a specific topic which he and others here are experts on, and then you turn around and complain?
Sorry, that just doesn't jive with me.

strcpy · Aug 29, 2005, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

He's being incredibly foolish. He posted it in build *discussion*. Just taking a casual look at the contents of the forum would give him a very good idea of what sorts of discussion take place there. If you're going to post a build there, it's going to get ripped apart and its parts laid bare for everyone to see. Or, in this case, was so bad that it wasn't even worth analyzing, and the forumites made it abundantly clear that was the case.

If he didn't want that to happen to his build he needed to post in a different forum, or not at all.

I somewhat agree, I also had criticism for him. But even though people have seen it hundreds (or even thousands) of times it was no reason to be *rude*. At worst it was ample reason to ignore them.

If you had offered real advice and he poo-poo'd it - yep, tear him a new one.

I shoot quite a bit of target archery, specifically what is known as traditional archery. At least 5 times a week people ask "What wieght should I start with" - even though there are usually 2-3 *titles* of threads exactly that on the front page. They are usually answered with "use search, 30-35 lbs" or ignored. Nice, polite, and to the point. I get very tired of hearing that and search is easy (in fact most times it is simply look at the front page topics). Now, when people start arguing then feel free to go to town - everyone does, they are pretty much asking for it then. Either a "Use search, done before" or "Builds not too good, use search" and you may have had one more happy person, instead you get this. Not to mention how many lurkers now view you as a "smart ass" and see things become unfriendly. There are areas of this board I don't go to because half or more of the people flame most posts.

Even if you are not christian "The Golden Rule" is a pretty good one - do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Next time you are a realtive new person in something would *you* feel "Oh well, what a bunch of nice guys - I like it here" after many of those replies? And notice that he wasn't fussing about being told his build was bad, or how to improve it - he was complaining about people being smart asses. I bet "I'm tired of hearing what you said" has never once made any of the people who are now using that feel it was OK when done to them, no idea why they suddenly think that is valid when they feel that way. General rule of thumb is that however you would feel being treated the way you are treating someone is how they feel.

Sarus · Aug 29, 2005, 05:06 AM // 05:06

I think the solution here is to add a button for mods which will automatically close a thread and add a post that says "Learn to use the search"

I think this would save a lot of time for our mods (i.e., Scaph).

Aug 29, 2005, 07:30 AM // 07:30

This is exactly why I stopped being an active poster: bullshit.
meh, maybe I should come out of retirement